January 24, 2014
The same forces that instigated unruly demonstrations in 2011 in Syria are now instigating such demonstrations in the Ukraine. That at least is what I am reading out of the fact that the exactly same graphics are used to train the willing-to-fight demonstrators. How else to explain the above graphics, once with Arabic and once with in Cyrillic letters?
Accompanying the demonstrations and illegal occupations of government buildings are in both cases brutal, criminal attacks on the police and other government forces. In Syria the violence “muscle” part was done by foreign financed Jihadists while neo-nazi gangs are used in the Ukraine. The demonstrations and the attacks on the state are planned and go together. There is nothing “peaceful” in demonstrations that are only the public-relations cover for attacks on the state. But the foreign politicians and media immediately utter “concerns” and threats over completely normal government responses to them. It is a scam to justify “western” “support” for the demonstrators and to further the violence.
The aim is “regime change” of legitimate governments by small minorities. Should the “regime” resist to that the alternative of destroying the state and the whole society is also wholeheartedly accepted.
Several German media used of the “regime” slander for the dully elected Ukrainian government today and did some concern trolling about “peaceful demonstrators” while policemen in Kiev were doused with Molotov cocktails. It is very obvious what is going on here and the media are playing along with the politicians, militaries and secret services that are behind these “revolutions”.
Color revolutions in the old form had become too obvious a scheme to be of further use. The concept was therefore extended to include intensive use of force and mercenaries and to support those forces from the outside with weapons, ammunition, training and other means. After Libya, where Gaddhafi forces are still fighting back, Syria was destroyed and now the Ukraine is the target. There are likely lists of other countries that shall be attacked by such means. What is really behind the Gezi-park demonstrations in Turkey and the protests in Bangkok? Are foreign powers behind these too or are they just copycat actions by local groups? How does Egypt fit in?
And what is the best defense a legitimate government can build against and how should it react to such attacks?
Posted by b on January 24, 2014 at 12:37 PM | Permalink
Posted by: Sierrasverdes1 | Jan 24, 2014 12:45:30 PM | 1
Posted by: james | Jan 24, 2014 12:47:54 PM | 2
Posted by: annie | Jan 24, 2014 12:49:29 PM | 3
Posted by: stephen | Jan 24, 2014 12:59:17 PM | 4
“And what is the best defense a legitimate government can build against and how should it react to such attacks?”
Three defenses which come to my mind:
1) Social justice. Base the economy for the prosperity of the “people” and not the profit of the “elite”. I tend to think that a person with a full belly a proper shelter, decent education and health care and an economically productive life is much less likely to go for the Western BS propaganda and become a thug attacking his own state.
2) Freedom of information and reliable independent media. One of the major components of the “colour revolutions” (I prefer to call them “colour coups”) is the propaganda and disinformation campaigns, and that in turn heavily relies on the fact that significant parts of the society do NOT trust the national media and their independence and truthfulness. This in turn make them turn to “foreign media” and become vulnerable to the BS coming out of the western corporate media.
3) Democratization of the state. People should be in charge of the state apparatus and not a special-interest elite which is only after its own hegemony on the society, on the social labour and on the country’s natural resources.
Coloured coups -to the best of my knowledge- usually work against states with certain weaknesses. Those “regimes” which try to democratize both the economy and the state, usually become much less vulnerable to “coloured coups” and instead the imperialism resorts to overt “military coup”. Sukarno, Allende, Mosaddegh, etc. all went victim to military coups not to “coloured coups”. Were there no attempt to bring down the government through coloured-coup-like tactics? Were there no strikes by “unions” (on the pay-roll of CIA) against Allende government? Were there no ruthless propaganda and disinformation campaign by local media (again on the pay-roll of foreign intelligence services) against Mosaddegh? Yes there were. But that is the whole point, in the end none of those tactics were successful. In the end the West had to resort to overt military coup.
Posted by: pirouz_2 | Jan 24, 2014 1:54:17 PM | 5
Posted by: masoud | Jan 24, 2014 1:58:39 PM | 6
Posted by: William Bowles | Jan 24, 2014 2:01:15 PM | 7
Best defence is a good offence? Fund, train the same type of freedom movements to US, UK, Isr, et al?
If that were to happen, the reaction of those states to those demonstrators would be extreme and bloody repression.
And for extra measure, throw in a government-issued proclamation of a state of emergency to sweep up anyone else deemed a trouble-maker however unrelated.
A clean sweep in other words.
Posted by: sleepy | Jan 24, 2014 3:34:53 PM | 8
Posted by: JSorrentine | Jan 24, 2014 3:46:19 PM | 9
However, the embarrassment of American politician/celebrity whores continues: here’s Arnold Schwarzenegger sending a video message of support to the Ukraine for his family members? friends there. Retarded.
If the Ukrainian government was smart they would all come out of the closet and then the US/NED/CIA couldn’t hope to attack them as then it would constitute gay-bashing and Elton John and Ahnold would then be at each others’ throats. Cat fight!!!
Or maybe if all of the females in the Ukrainian government took off their tops and ran around saying that it was the patriarchy of Svoboda that was the real threat then Victoria Nuland would be feeding THEM cakes! C’mon people think!
Posted by: JSorrentine | Jan 24, 2014 4:02:51 PM | 10
Posted by: Nobody | Jan 24, 2014 4:31:23 PM | 11
Posted by: harrylaw | Jan 24, 2014 4:34:35 PM | 12
Posted by: Nobody | Jan 24, 2014 4:36:36 PM | 13
pirouz_2 no 5 is correct. “Color revolutions” only work when there is no democracy in the first place.
Legitimacy is more than winning elections. If a state is oppressive and authoritarian people feel justified in attacking its representatives.
The Ukrainian conflict is politically toxic – from 2010.
The incoming Ukrainian president will have to turn some attention to history, because the outgoing one has just made a hero of a long-dead Ukrainian fascist. By conferring the highest state honor of “Hero of Ukraine” upon Stepan Bandera (1909-1959) on January 22, Viktor Yushchenko provoked protests from the chief rabbi of Ukraine, the president of Poland, and many of his own citizens. It is no wonder. Bandera aimed to make of Ukraine a one-party fascist dictatorship without national minorities. During World War II, his followers killed many Poles and Jews. Why would President Yushchenko, the leader of the democratic Orange Revolution, wish to rehabilitate such a figure? Bandera, who spent years in Polish and Nazi confinement, and died at the hands of the Soviet KGB, is for some Ukrainians a symbol of the struggle for independence during the twentieth century.
The German government seems to ally with old historical friends. They did in the case of Croatia.
And we still are not at the bottom of the reason the NSU was allowed to operate freely.
I guess fascim is the European version of Al Qaeda.
Posted by: somebody | Jan 24, 2014 6:25:12 PM | 14
Vladimir Putin has already pre-empted these protests by extending loans and reduced fuel costs, but perhaps he needs to do more.
Posted by: Skye | Jan 24, 2014 6:28:57 PM | 15
Some more on the pamphlets
Posted by: grumpy | Jan 24, 2014 7:06:58 PM | 16
This is a good start:
GENE SHARP, MASTER OF NONVIOLENT WARFARE
The whole blog site is here:
GUERILLAS WITHOUT GUNS (UTOPIAN MEANS FOR IMPERIAL GAIN IN THE FORMER USSR)
Posted by: Petri Krohn | Jan 24, 2014 7:11:56 PM | 17
Posted by: Zico | Jan 24, 2014 7:26:01 PM | 18
The USA has determined that its in its “national interests” to deprive China of access to Africa’s oil fields and has succeeded in its goal of again shutting down Chinese oil production in Sudan, the only majority Chinese owned oil field in Africa.
What other evidence links the USA to the South Sudanese civil war? Thanks to Wikileaks we know that the USA via the CIA has been paying the salaries of the South Sudanese Army (SPLA) since 2009. In other words, both the soldiers (“rebels”) supporting Riek Machar and the soldier supporting President Salva Kiir are being paid by the USA, paid to kill each other? Don’t take my word for it, go check Wikileaks.
Posted by: brian | Jan 24, 2014 8:02:24 PM | 19
It would be really good if this was reprinted here in full (links go missing!)
Posted by: DM | Jan 24, 2014 8:20:36 PM | 20
Posted by: james | Jan 24, 2014 8:24:04 PM | 21
This is one of the few ways the Ukrainian government can reach the sympathetic people at home and in the West, by taking these Nazis of off the streets and making clear the connections between these groups and their wealthy “nationalist” backers and foreign intelligence agencies that are surely close behind these thugs, urging them on. A violent crackdown on these fascist gangs will have the support of the broad base of the Ukrainian public and the foreign public. But it must be attended by a truthful media campaign, explaining the nature of this mob and their backers. The world is not so lost yet that a gaggle of violent skinheads can strike a sympathetic pose – they should be all arrested immediately and paraded on television with their shaven heads and their nazi-aesthetic paraphernalia. They should be linked with the awful examples of street crime in Ukraine and with the psychopathic killers that have become infamous in post-Soviet society. That is what this fight can be about.
And once the violent element is removed, let the “peaceful” ones demonstrate harmlessly – there is no threat from them, they are no majority here and they should be allowed to freely protest – and then to fizzle out. But society cannot be seen to fall victim to these gangs, or else then who can say of the government that they have any legitimacy?
The countries of Europe ravaged by the Nazis must have zero tolerance for Nazis in their midst today. The fact that such groups can even exist in countries where these same young men’s grandparents were victimized by this ideology. This is all a result of the snuffing out of Socialism in the eastern bloc – all the huge numbers of violent young men with fuckall to do except be violent mercenaries in the pay of whoever offers them a check. And we know that won’t be the austerity shrunken governments of the neoliberal states!
Posted by: guest77 | Jan 24, 2014 9:04:05 PM | 23
You’re onto something with the Gene Sharp link.
Steve Gowans (What’s Left) wrote articles a few years ago about Sharp and Overthrow Inc. I’ve begun shuffling through the archives to find relevant articles. In the comments of one such article there were some quite unfriendly exchanges between Gowans and one of the individuals he had named as a regime-change expert/perp.
Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jan 24, 2014 9:13:58 PM | 24
But the people of the Ukraine should know that the West has no compunction about visiting the horrors of Syria onto them. This should be a moment to reverse the breakdown of the East of Europe into more and more microstates. Let Ukraine be the countries that turn the tide against the dangerous divide-and-conquer strategy of the United States and the EU.
It is worth reviewing the events in Georgia, where in that Ivy league educated imbecile (what other kind is there?) Mikheil Saakashvili forced his way into power in a “color coup” (thank you Pirouz) only to let his country become a plaything for the Republican Party and the Israelis – bringing the poor people of georgia nothing except hardship and war: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rose_Revolution https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tj-L8F_y040
Posted by: guest77 | Jan 24, 2014 9:27:35 PM | 25
dont forget thailand, there’s a virtual coup attempt to replace the pm by *swarming adolecense* going on , right after thailand n china had concluded a highspeed rail n rice swap deal.
in this new version they call it *swarming youth*
Posted by: denk | Jan 24, 2014 10:34:07 PM | 26
Posted by: denk | Jan 24, 2014 10:40:29 PM | 27
Posted by: denk | Jan 24, 2014 10:41:12 PM | 28
*The most important was the currency swap deal between the Bank of Thailand and the People’s Bank of China, worth 70 billion RMB to strengthen trade and investment. This agreement will permit Thai and Chinese exporters to settle their trade deals in their own currencies, thus decreasing the influence of US dollar in their trade. This agreement will last for three years and will be extended by mutual consent*
like hell is uncle sham gonna take such *insolence* lying down !
Posted by: denk | Jan 24, 2014 10:51:44 PM | 29
there might be multiple posts due to the system filter, pse delete accordinly, tku .
Posted by: denk | Jan 24, 2014 10:54:32 PM | 30
that *template* has been used successfully in kosovo, myanmar n beyond.
*who’s col robert helvey* ?
Posted by: denk | Jan 25, 2014 1:30:37 AM | 31
Posted by: denk | Jan 25, 2014 1:34:31 AM | 32
And what is the best defense a legitimate government can build against and how should it react to such attacks?
a) decisively crush down the alien sponsored terrorists using the necessary force to swiftly bring the attack on the state to an end.
b) *severely* punish the terrorists. Also force them tp pay for all damages they created. Also have them clean up their mess. Use force generously.
c) offer them a modest amount of leniency if they confess (and tell all details), particularly illegal foreign involvement.
d) Cut all relations with zus and zeu. Have all foreigners who took part in the attacks as well as all foreign politicians and all zamericans leave the country within 48 hours.
e) lay the states hands on any and all zamerican property, accounts, and other values so as to compensate for the damage they created.
f) fight hard against traitors as well as against corruption so as to *really* bring your country forward and enable the citizens to enjoy better lives.
(As probably some will come up and talk about “brutality” let me make a point clear: The vast majority of Ukrainians who did *not* act criminally or who did not even “demonstrate” have the *right* to be protected from criminals, traitors and terrorists)
Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Jan 25, 2014 1:39:16 AM | 33
I will give an imaginary example:
Imagine that there is this single mother, who acts irresponiblly and drinks day and night and regularly abuses her own child. One night that she has drunk herself unconscious and has even forgot to lock the door, a criminal with an extensive record of sex offences, burglary and robbery (this symbolizes the West), easily opens her door. The thief comes in rapes the unconscious woman, robs the house and in the course of his evil deeds wakes up the sleeping child. The child screams, the thief gets panicky while trying to shut the child up, kills her all the while the parent is in a alcohol induced coma.
Just in that single night, this thief/sex offender, with an extensive record of criminal activity, has done rape, murder and thievery.
Is there any way that one can find any excuse for what the criminal (ie. the West) has done? Would any passer by who may realize what’s going on, hesitate for a single moment to intervene and stop the criminal act, or at least call the police? Is there any person with the least of decency who would behave differently or try to some how find an excuse in the criminal’s behaviour in the irresponsible and abusive life-style of the single woman?
But that doesn’t stop us from criticising the drunkard and start seeing her as the perfectly “democratic” and conscious parent now does it? The criminal act of the thief does not excuse the irresponsible and abusive acts of the “victim”.
The way to go for the single woman, is to quit drinking, change her life style and become a loving responsible parent, lock her door properly and perhaps even buy an electronic security system.
Posted by: Pirouz_2 | Jan 25, 2014 2:42:38 AM | 34
Posted by: somebody | Jan 25, 2014 3:41:59 AM | 35
Clarity is a decent goal but analogies are not often the way to get there. I preferred your initial post. Besides…
Now that her kid is dead who is the poor woman suppose to love as a parent? The memory of her late child? She’s not likely to be able to stop drinking after what happened you know. I don’t think she’ll find the courage to have more kids either. For one: she would have to start dating again before she can have another one (unless the rapist inseminated her) I think she’s full of mistrust for men. She should get a dog. I called mine NATO btw.
This being said, What a great discussion! It’s funny it should come out of such a small thing as pamphlets illustrations (in deed, in today’s world it truly means little) The fact that “b” ended his posting with so many questions got us all thinking and checking facts against our believes and experiences.
I don’t want to be stating the obvious because it’s obviously known to the barflies. for the records: I do believe Thailand’s protests are genuine, the revolution isn’t highjacked, the government and the counter revolution are wallstreet backed though and snipers are there to mess everything up. And then there’s Bahrain and all the places MSM doesn’t report on…
Posted by: emmanuelle | Jan 25, 2014 4:55:34 AM | 36
Right here in Europe, we are working with our partners to press the Government of Ukraine to forgo violence, to address the concerns of peaceful protesters, to foster dialogue, promote the freedom of assembly and expression. And I literally just received messages before walking in here of the efforts of our diplomats on the ground working with President Yanukovych to try to achieve calm and help move in this direction in the next days. We will stand with the people of Ukraine.
Posted by: somebody | Jan 25, 2014 5:07:56 AM | 37
I share this view but concider, it is a very hard job for an alkoholic to educate a child the right way(censorship/forign media).
Posted by: Some1 | Jan 25, 2014 5:26:10 AM | 38
He noted that “the political dilemma of ‘either with the EU or with Russia’ did not bear fruit,” because “the real di lemma facing Ukraine at the time of the Vilnius Summit Meeting was not the dilemma between a European course or a return to a close relationship with Russia, but the dilemma, in the face of the threat of fiscal collapse, of whether it would be saved by the IMF or by someone else.” In this regard, he made the reminder that the day after the Vilnius Summit, the Russian government decided to buy €15 billion in Ukrainian bonds, saving Ukraine from a fiscal collapse, “with all that that means for international correlations in the region….
Mr. Venizelos stated that “the truth is, our strategy with regard to Russia is the victim of a major internal discord. Because the common European position on this matter is subordinate to the sum of the policies exercised by all the member states on the bilateral level with Russia,” adding that “the internal contradiction is
very clear in the fact that, de facto, the EU accepts the priority of the U.S. on the major international issues (Syria, Iran), on which we have significant joint U.S.- Russian initiatives.”
Finally, he referred to the pressures states are coming under in their energy policies in the name of fair competition and the functioning of the single market. Specifically, he referred to the great pressure Greece has come under with regard to the privatization programme for major public enterprises in the energy sector.
He noted that no one wants the European Commission, in the name of the EU, to negotiate with Russia the prices of natural gas with Gazprom in a unified manner. The difference in the price of natural gas for the Greek and German markets is just as important for the Greek economy as the difference in interest rates on loans for SMEs.
“We have the most expensive money and energy for our enterprises. We have a major problem with putting the Greek
economy back on its feet. This is not abstract geopolitics. It is a very specific issue that is linked to the state of the economy in all the countries, in all the societies, in all households. In my opinion, this is the major issue with regard to Ukraine and Russia,” he concluded.
Posted by: somebody | Jan 25, 2014 5:39:28 AM | 39
“The child screams, the thief gets panicky while trying to shut the child up, kills her all the while the parent is in a alcohol induced coma.”
he/she cannot put the house in order. what do you expects from ghosts?
ok, it matters not. If you’re happy with analogies go ahead: half reading, half projecting your thoughts. good thing we’re in good company
Posted by: emmanuelle | Jan 25, 2014 5:58:18 AM | 40
Since the French revolution killed the father, brothers have been having problems with each other …
Posted by: somebody | Jan 25, 2014 6:56:39 AM | 41
I see some naive people support the protesters, dont be fooled, these are neonazis.
Posted by: Anonymous | Jan 25, 2014 9:58:36 AM | 42
We are very concerned about what is happening in Ukraine and are urging all parties to resolve the problems emerged solely through dialog. We know about the existing information that this is stimulated from abroad to a large extent. We would prefer that some of our European colleagues refrained from acting unceremoniously over the Ukrainian crisis, when, without any kind of invitation, members of certain European governments rush to the Maidan (central square), take part in anti-government demonstrations in a country, with which they have diplomatic relations.
Of course this color revolution, like all color revolutions goes against the Westphalian Treaty, which is the bedrock of International Affairs. The Westphalia Treaty states that, no foreign nation should meddle in the internal affairs of another state and has been the guiding principle for International Relations for 300 years.
Fun Fact: During the American Civil War, France considered joining on the side of the Confedarcy. France had alot of Economic ties with the South especially in New Orleans. France finally decided not to join the civil war because it was against the Wesphalia Treaty, by interferring in the internal affairs of another state. Something to remember now that the US is backing rebels in Syria civil war. Obviously some states have more respect for International Relations than others.
Posted by: Colm O’ Toole | Jan 25, 2014 10:09:01 AM | 43
Posted by: Anonymous | Jan 25, 2014 10:25:56 AM | 44
I’m not sure how the treaty of Westphalia fits in to that.
I agree with pirouz_2 and Guest 77. The fascists (Gladio-tors under NATO command) are engaged
in provocations. It would be surprising if their next move did not include sniping at the
demonstration- they want blood and lots of it. Already they have got the braindead
“Liberal Humanitarian” crowd of imperialism’s useful idiots, chirping away with calls for intervention.
What the government ought to do is to arrest and try a foreign agent or two.
Posted by: bevin | Jan 25, 2014 10:42:57 AM | 45
Posted by: ruralito | Jan 25, 2014 10:59:20 AM | 46
Posted by: ben | Jan 25, 2014 11:14:56 AM | 47
Posted by: ruralito | Jan 25, 2014 11:25:11 AM | 48
As long as the United States outweighs other countries economically and can spend so freely on “cultural product”,
it will always be able to find a willing audience for its bullshit – just as sales of toothpaste have little to do with the
qualities of the product, and everything to do with the quality of the advertising.
And this ability is largely backed by the US ability to foist an ungodly $17 trillion in debt upon the other countries of
the world by its money printing. But also, importantly, by the corporate system which reduces the producers down into
a small oligarchy entirely in control of this government, and focused only their own growth and survival.
The best defense against this – and likely the only – is a real build up of popular organizations at the neighborhood level,
and help give them the ability to produce their own local media and provide for their own defense with militias. This type of democracy
is seen in Venezuela, despite the serious problems (brought on, in the large part, by the economically destructive actions of the ousted
oligarchy. And Venezuela has survived, despite the incredible US pressure. And Syria, seemingly, is going to survive, having turned to
this model – even if too late and in the face of an even more unscrupulous and brutal enemy, to prevent years of war.
But the true involvement of the people means the surrender of power by the oligarchy in these countries – even if they are “patriotic” and
“independent” (assuming such small centers of wealth and power can ever be). In every country where the people have a genuine stake in ruling
themselves, there will be far more patriots than traitors – this fact must be relied on if these countries are going to survive. The only
alternative for them, besides this empowerment of their people in a true participatory and democratic forms, is at best degradation on
the level of Greece – if they are lucky.
Posted by: guest77 | Jan 25, 2014 12:00:56 PM | 49
Posted by: Anonymous | Jan 25, 2014 1:18:56 PM | 50
And yet some ME followers don’t agree:
Angry Arab has an interesting article in al-akhbar:
How to Start a Revolution: Or the Delusionsof Gene Sharp
It is not difficult, of course, to mock the writings of Sharp. His instructions for revolution are too basic and common-sensical to be credited to Sharp. The film even suggests that he was behind the idea of beating pots and pans in Serbia, when Latin Americans have engaged in this form of protests for decades, long before Sharp’s books were translated (at his own initiative) to Spanish. He, for example, suggests that protesters should wave flags, as if they did not think of that prior to the publication of Sharp’s books.
Posted by: Yul | Jan 25, 2014 1:49:50 PM | 51
Posted by: Pirouz_2 | Jan 25, 2014 2:30:37 PM | 53
I was just trying to make a point and made up an example on the go to explain the *main point* that I was trying to make:
Victimizing a victimizer is as bad as victimizing an innocent and the fact that the victim herself may have been a victimizer does not excuse her victimization by the thief.Nor should the fact that she has been brutally victimized make us not see her real face and instead glorify her as a wonderful person.
It was just an imaginary example, and I did not intend it correspond one to one to everything which is happening (so don’t try to read into every detail of that example).
As to the original comment that I made:
States in general (with very few exceptions where a movement has tried to make them an instrument for serving the masses) be it in the West or be it in the developing countries, has always been a representative of a ruling elite which hegemonize the society and exploit the social labour and the natural resources for their own interest.In developing countries where the productivity of the labour is low and masses cannot be apoliticized using part of the abundant products of the social labour, and where they don’t have a massive military to rely on for supremacy, the only reliable fulcrum that a state has is its own citizens.
Ironically in the course of hegemonizing their own people and exploiting them, the state (as the instrument of the elite’s power) alienates its own people (or at least significant parts of it). This is the main weakness that they have and the west exploits it to the full extent! In such a developing country, if the local bourgeoisie shows a tendency to become “national bourgeoisie” and act independently in its own interests on the international arena, it comes face to face with the much stronger, heavily militarized and much wealthier Western bourgeoisie, and when it needs a fulcrum among its own people, it finds that it has weakened its own most reliable fulcrum itself! (by victimizing it). And this is precisely what the Western imperialism uses against it!
Posted by: Pirouz_2 | Jan 25, 2014 2:31:50 PM | 54
I suggest: “Follow the money”.
We know House of Saud and Qatar are funding the Jihadists in Syria. Western governments are funding other Sunni factions there. Until the cash stops flowing and arms shipments quarantined, the ethnic fighting between Sunnis and Shiites in the Levant will continue; forever.
Ukraine may be a natural tinderbox with a 17% Russian minority. Being ruled by uncaring minority Russian plutocrats would trigger tribal hatreds and clashes. Western propaganda and “grass is greener on the other side” also contributes; but since the turn of the century western governments and institutions have initiated a spree of risky adventures, and cash to push Ukraine towards the West and away from Russia seems to be one of these neo-crazy schemes.
Posted by: VietnamVet | Jan 25, 2014 3:18:15 PM | 55
I was just trying to make a point and made up an example on the go to explain the *main point* that I was trying to make:
Victimizing a victimizer is as bad as victimizing and innocent and the fact that the victim herself may have been a victimizer does not excuse her victimization by the thief. Nor should the fact that she has been brutally victimized make us not see her real face and instead glorify her as a wonderful person.
It was just an imaginary example and I did not intend it to correspond one to one to everything which is happening. So don’t try to read into every detail of that example.
As to the original comment that I made:
States in general (with very few exceptions where a movement has tried to make them an instrument for serving the masses) be it in the West or be it in the developing countries, has always been a representative of a rulling elite which hegemonize the society and exploit the social labour and the natural resources for their own interests. What makes the developing countries different from the core imperialist countries (and this is very important to understand)ia that in developing countries where the productivity of the labour is low and masses cannot be apoliticized using part of the abundant products of the social labour (in other words their own labour) and where the states don’t have a massive military to rely on for supremacy, the only reliable fulcrum that the state can lean on is its own citizens.
Ironically in the course of hegemonizing their own people and exploiting them, the state (as the instrument of the elite’s power) alienates its own people (or at least significant parts of it). This is the main weakness that they have and the West exploits this weakness ot its full extent! In such developing countries, if the local bourgeoisie shows a tendency to become a “national bourgeoisie” and act independently in its own interests on the international arena, it comes face to face with the much stronger, heavily militarized and much wealthier bourgeoisie, and when it needs to lean on a fulcrum among its own people, it finds that it has weakened its most reliable asset itself (by victimizing it)! And this is precisely what the Western imperialism uses against it.
Posted by: Pirouz_2 | Jan 25, 2014 3:23:53 PM | 56
I was in a bit of a hurry and could not re-read the whole thing to at least correct some of the typos. I hope it is understandable as it is.
Posted by: Pirouz_2 | Jan 25, 2014 3:31:08 PM | 57
The proposals were rejected, with the head of the Ukrainian Democratic Alliance for Reform party, Vitaly Klitschko, saying that current laws must be abolished and presidential elections must be held this year. He added that negotiations will continue, RT’s Alexey Yaroshevsky reported.”Our country is put by those at power to the brink of falling apart,” said Batkivschina leader Arseny Yatsenyuk. “We demand that Yanukovich relieves the position of Ukraine’s president and we need a new constitution.”
This obviously smells like it was all along planned to coincide with Sochi and nothing will deter this effing criminals from pushing this until they get a violent response from the government which will of course be blamed on Putin. I’m sure one of the killed protestors will also just happen to be gay so it will be a twofer.
Posted by: JSorrentine | Jan 25, 2014 4:11:16 PM | 58
Notice the familiar American/Western modus operandi – i.e, whole cloth narrative/reality building – again on display vis a vis the Ukraine. As with Syria, the US is not just kind of twisting the truth, fudging the facts or spinning their reporting they are actively creating a fantastical storyline that has the wholehearted support of a nearly every major world media outlet.
This whole cloth narrative/reality building first evidenced in full with 9/11 but then practiced/honed throughout the rest of this nascent century – a century (the Information Age) btw graced with the wonders of the Internet which on the surface would seem to be a tool that would make such narrative building an impossibility – is what is the common thread in every single instance. A psychotically cavalier attitude towards anything not just of a legal nature – e.g. Westphalia etc – but of a REAL nature. The difference may seem subtle at first but it is markedly more sinister and significant.
I think that’s why TPTB don’t care that us peons carp about their violations of law anymore as they – again, as they’ve told us – have moved onto to bigger arenas. What does it matter if they break laws if they can – for all intents and purposes – create realities that nullify those laws? If you think they are breaking established law, why they’ll just create a reality where – especially after the fact and when the history is appropriately rewritten by them of course – those laws seem silly and arcane, their actions justified and “reasonable”.
I wish I was joking but I can see why the neocons could fully envisage a future in which Cheney, Bush and Rumsfeld actually would be regarded as heroes and not war criminals. They weren’t just blowing crazy hot air. They knew that the game they’re playing is a long one, one which consists mainly of a relentless and incessant creation of narratives that will become through their accretion over time the accepted reality/history of the world. The fact that all of the elite are seemingly fully on board with this plan is to me the truly frightening part.
Posted by: JSorrentine | Jan 25, 2014 4:33:39 PM | 59
From RT, which spoke to one of the protesters outside the embassy.
The US is behind everything that is happening in Kiev’s downtown right now. The financing is coming from over there. This has to be stopped. That is what we came out here to say to the whole world: ‘US – stop! US – there needs to be peace in Ukraine’
Meanwhile the color revolutions main leader, Vitali Klitschko, was talked about in Der Spiegel under the headline “EU Grooms Boxer Vitali Klitschko to lead Ukraine Opposition”. Amoung the information contained in the article:
The fight for Ukraine has now become a contest between the Russian president and the German chancellor. Putin won the first round. But Merkel and her fellow Europeans are grooming professional heavyweight boxer Vitali Klitschko to be their new strongman.
Much of the work happens behind the scenes. Klitschko’s party, the Ukrainian Democratic Alliance for Reform (UDAR), formed in 2010, became an observer member of the EPP recently. EPP offices in Brussels and Budapest are training UDAR personnel for parliamentary work and providing support in the development of a nationwide party structure. The Konrad Adenauer Foundation, which is closely aligned with the CDU, also plays an important role.
What exactly is it that makes Germany think it can get away with this open interference in Ukraine? In fact Der Spiegel reports on it like this is normal for Germany to be “grooming” a “new strongman” in Ukraine and openly admitting to training/funding this new color revolution.
Then Der Spiegel drops this insane line:
While “regime change” is too strong a term for what Germany is seeking, it’s not entirely off base.
I think the Pro-Government Ukrainian protests should be setting up shop outside the German embassy. If the color revolution mobs raid any government ministries…. the Pro-Government crowds should raid the German embassy.
Posted by: Colm O’ Toole | Jan 25, 2014 5:22:15 PM | 60
Posted by: guest77 | Jan 25, 2014 9:21:47 PM | 61
there r many good info in the *external articles* section.
i remember someone saying sourcewatch is another psyop, well if so, at least it put in some effort to earn some good *street cred* !
*China has become Thailand’s second largest trading partner, the biggest market, and the second largest import source. The trade between the two countries is carried out through the Mekong River and it was reiterated from the Thai side to jointly maintain safety on the Mekong River*
im often called a *conspiracy theorist*, but im going to stick out my neck again…. that first of its kind mekong massacre of chinese sailors , coming in the wake of that *asia pivot* n slaying of chinese workers, tourists elswhere, had to be another fukus black op to inflame the already strained china myanmar relation n finally to drive out the chinese all together.
Posted by: denk | Jan 25, 2014 9:57:15 PM | 62
I think Yanukovich was actually trying to pre-empt the protest movement. It failed. However, his offer gives him the high ground, particularly, I think, with the Ukrainian people. Klitschko is still calling for new elections; and, I think Yanukovich, may be preparing the ground for them.
Incidentally BBC World Service has been reporting on the patience and forbearance of the Ukrainian police as they are being attacked and fire bombed by “a group separate from the main body of protesters”.
Posted by: okie farmer | Jan 26, 2014 12:36:25 AM | 63
Ukraine’s opposition rebuffed a dramatic compromise offer from President Viktor Yanukovich late on Saturday to end the country’s political crisis by sharing power with his rivals and accepting curbs on his own authority.
Demonstrators soon afterwards began storming Kiev’s largest exhibition hall following reports that riot police were hiding inside, threatening violent new clashes after a week in which two-month-old anti-government protests turned deadly. But they formed a safe corridor to allow interior ministry troops inside the building to leave.
In a startling reversal after weeks of holding firm, Mr Yanukovich offered to dismiss his government and name Arseny Yatseniuk, one of the protest leaders, as premier.
He offered Vitali Klitschko, the heavyweight boxer turned opposition leader, the role of deputy premier for humanitarian issues. Talks would also begin on constitutional changes boosting parliament’s powers and reducing those of the president.
The offers were conditional on protesters withdrawing from occupied government buildings and from their giant encampment on Kiev’s Independence Square.
Within hours, however, Mr Klitschko told demonstrators the president’s offer was inadequate, and the opposition would continue to press for Mr Yanukovich’s resignation.
“Our demands are to hold presidential elections this year, we will not back off,” he added. Mr Yatseniuk said the opposition was “ready” to take power and “lead the country into Europe”, adding that this would involve freeing jailed ex-premier Yulia Tymoshenko, whose party he now leads.
But he said the people, not the president, would decide who occupied key posts.
Mr Yanukovich’s biggest concession yet had provided a glimmer of hope that further violence could be avoided after recent days when pitched battles between protesters and police left at least four people dead and more than a thousand injured.
It came as the president faced mounting challenges to his rule after protesters in 10 of Ukraine’s 25 regions were reported to have seized control of local governments. In the capital, demonstrators on Friday added the agriculture ministry to several government buildings they already control in central Kiev, and on Saturday attempted to seize the energy ministry.
But the president’s offer went down badly with protesters who said nothing short of his resignation would persuade them to abandon the uprising.
“The regime is clearly thinking that they can disperse crowds with a few cosmetic changes in government,” said Serhiy, 32, a Kiev financial analyst wearing a motorcycle helmet as protection. “But they’re wrong and don’t realise this is not what we have been standing here for two months for.”
Analysts suggested Mr Yanukovich’s compromise offer had been carefully calibrated to leave opposition party leaders with a dilemma. Dismissal of the government had been one of their key demands, while a shift to a more parliamentary system, reducing the president’s powers, had been mooted in political circles in Kiev as a potential way out of the crisis.
By accepting the offer, however, they would have risked alienating themselves from protesters on the square pressing for more. They might also have struggled to persuade more radicalised and hardline groups taking part in the protests to be bound by the deal.
Some protesters criticised opposition party leaders addressing the square on Saturday for being evasive on exactly what the president had offered them during a third day of crisis talks.
But by rejecting the compromise deal they risk allowing the authorities to portray them as unwilling to accept any deal, and using the refusal as a pretext for attempting to crush the protests by force.
Members of Mr Yanukovich’s party have been reportedly pressing him to call a state of emergency in the country.
Opposition leaders appeared to believe that they could extract further concessions as pressure mounted on the president.
Large numbers are expected at the main weekly rally on Sunday, with new arrivals from western Ukraine already flowing into central Kiev on Saturday night. Protesters also plan on Sunday to march across a frozen lake to rally in front of Mr Yanukovich’s luxury home outside Kiev.
Posted by: okie farmer | Jan 26, 2014 2:04:49 AM | 64
Posted by: okie farmer | Jan 26, 2014 2:04:49 AM | 63
Smells like an ambush to me. Yanukovich’s Chief tactician is almost certain to be Putin et al. Vlad probably can’t spare any security forces until the Sochi Games have concluded. But if Yanukovich can hold out until then, Obama and the BBC’s pro-EU ‘protestors’ are in trouble (with a capital T).
Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jan 26, 2014 3:35:58 AM | 65
France ‘decided’ not to get involved in the US Civil War because they were up to their garter belts in the Mexican Revolution. Archduke Maximillian had become a sock puppet.
In much the same way, Ukraine is now the ZEU and ZUS ‘in your face’ response to Putin’s ‘nyet’ for regime replacement in Syria. Ukraine, of course, has oil and gas pipelines that Gazprom needs to control, and Syria threatens Saudi and Qatari oil and gas interests with its own pipelines projects from Iran, who was at one time the #4 oil and gas producer.
Just another drug cartel oil war funded by $18,000,000,000,000 in perpetual American debt.
All this will be forgotten when Kerry returns and approves the Keystone XL Pipeline, then maybe we’ll see a little ‘color’ in the American Revolution II. Right now it’s kinda 404.
The rabbinical myth of progress and death of bolivar/peso will soon bear fruit in America:
http://www.bookslut.com/blog/ Post for January 22, 2014
Posted by: Chip Nikh | Jan 26, 2014 3:56:49 AM | 66
Posted by: Anonymous | Jan 26, 2014 4:01:31 AM | 67
Posted by: Anonymous | Jan 26, 2014 4:17:10 AM | 68
Pirouz_2, Thanks, I really have to say this:
Be sure I value your comments, typos are nothing and you’re allowed all the analogies you want. (I still think men should think twice before bringing up things like woman or car analogies since most get screwed having their cars serviced, that tells how poorly people understand mechanic. But it’s ok. and I, as the drinking mother of two, could have imagined “only” one child had been killed… your example would then work you know!)
I like the point you make about developing countries I see it very well applying to many places, whether the revolution or the counter-revolution is imported and whether all events are met in the west with silence or spin (playing down or hyping)
But I don’t see this here (I live in what is said to be a developing country, it’s absolutely not developing but it’s called that. I think the state leans on its citizen when it says how many they are and uses that number when it asks donors for money. We’ll get back to Africa when it’s more relevant to the thread.) Again, I’ll look bad trying to match my experience and knowledge to your point, but how else can one judge a hypothesis?
Posted by: emmanuelle | Jan 26, 2014 8:30:03 AM | 69
Other photos on that link show the Pro-West crowds waving various “white power” flags. Svoboda’s old flag is known as the Wolfsangel Rune and is common in Neo-Nazi circles.
Posted by: Colm O’ Toole | Jan 26, 2014 11:37:54 AM | 70
…Yanukovich’s Chief tactician is almost certain to be Putin et al. Vlad probably can’t spare any security forces until the Sochi Games have concluded…
Sorry but that’s evidently not the case. While it might be that Y. did indeed ask president Putin for advice he, unlike Putin, has nothing that comes close to a clear line.
Instead Y. seems to helplessly try 3 different tactical moves every day and reminds more of a headless chicken than of an experienced intelligent leader.
As a sidenote: Considering the fact that Y. has even offered top gov. positions to the terrorists, it might be an interesting question what would happen if Y. completely gave in.
After all the terrorists most powerful trumpcard is Y. or, more precisely, his gross and evident incompetence and his clinging to some nice position no matter the “details”.
My personal guess: Ukraine would a) sign for zeu, b) immediately apply for zato c) set timochenko free, who d) would have klitchko and his terrorists for breakfast, gulp, and
run the state herself … and e) Ukraine would go belly up and bankrupt within months; sure enough zeu would neither help with significant loans nor even care about Ukraine. After
all, all zus/zeu/zato wanted was to a) have the not fiercly enough anti-Russia gov. disposed and b) Ukraine in turmoil, broken and at the wests mercy.
Putin can easily afford to just comfortably watch, no matter what happens. Ukraine will either now and driven by reason join a Russia partnership or they will do it quite soon on
their knees. Militarily Putin mustn’t (and doesn’t other than for publicity stunts) care about poland, Ukraine, etc. Quite the contrary; they are just invitations for Iskanders etc.
Ceterum censeo israel americanamque delenda esse.
Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Jan 26, 2014 11:38:13 AM | 71
No doubt there are some – very few – sectors of the Ukrainian population that will benefit from having their country enveloped by the neoliberal ooze. But the vast majority
will not. They should look closely at Greece and Latvia – and even Libya and Syria – as to what their future holds should they give up independence for the imagined “ease”
of life under neoliberal control. The fact is that “ease” exists only for a very, very few. For the remainder your troubles of today will seem like “the good old days” once you have
given control of your lives and your country to “Western” corporations.
Posted by: guest77 | Jan 26, 2014 11:38:16 AM | 72
The poster, a Russian, is pro-”revolution”
The photos are of course spectacular and really well done
but also interesting.
Note the use of fireworks, which are harmless and used for show
– to make fantastic pictures!
Guy Debord will be nodding.
Big pix, many (may be too much for slow connections)
Whatever is happening in the Ukraine,
mostly big money and big energy, Corps, fighting it out,
facing a weak Gvmt. etc. has nothing much to do with neo-Nazis
or other alarm about splinter, non-existent or mad tiny minority stuff.
(‘Islamist terrorists’ are absent on the roster.)
I read that Yanucovich offered the PM post and more to the opposition
see e.g. (downplays..) Bloomberg
This is bizarre yet understandable, much could be discussed.
The ‘opposition’ refused, to be expected.
That is vitally interesting, should be more discussed. (see also Sorrentine at 58, okie at 63, others..)
-cut up as the right margin is gone
Posted by: Noirette | Jan 26, 2014 12:14:50 PM | 73
That does not mean Russia is the best economic partner either – as I understand it Yulia Timoshenko went to prison for supposedly fraudulent Gazprom deals however those deals were still in place last year (with debt calculated on it) and have only been reduced now with Ukraine still being indebted and dependent on Russia for energy.
Russian majority state owned & controlled Gazprom is the only viable energy supplyer for Ukraine (and Germany) and a lot of other European countries.
For people on the ground however EU association would be useful – as lots go to Germany and other European countries for jobs. It is a matter of being able to travel, work and invest in the Euro zone freely, so if dealing with Russia should be conditioned on no EU membership it would hurt most people.
As the Greek foreign minister said in the Council of Europe (where Russia and Ukraine are members) – Europe should sort out its foreign policy concerning Russia and not automatically default to the US position. That would be in everybody’s including Ukraine’s interest.
Posted by: somebody | Jan 26, 2014 12:26:00 PM | 74
Yup, or how about the Ukes take at a look at this trial balloon floated in Greece last week to deal with the outrageous unemployment: SLAVERY!!
Yes, in order to attract more neoliberal corporate raping of their nation, let’s start a program where people work for free.
Seriously, I mentioned it in an earlier post but I think that one of the most significant things about this century so far which doesn’t get the attention it deserves is that even in the face of the Internet/Digital Age TPTB have become even MORE brazen and prolific in their lying.
It takes posters here and elsewhere all of about 3 minutes to dig up facts on the Internet which at the very least call into question the ridiculous narratives of the elite and even though a press conference reporter – for example – could use their f*cking iPhone etc to fact check in real time what any of these murderous war criminals are saying everyone’s agreed to playact like we’re still in 1970. With regard to Ukraine, besides not even attempting to truthfully report the motivations of the “protestors” et al, there is nary a single word of analysis as to WHY any country in their right mind – given Greece, Spain, Cyprus, Latvia etc – would want to join the E(F)U.
At the beginning of the century there was some talk as to why reporters didn’t use the Net to research more etc and the narrative was created – again, completely nonsensical – that a person just couldn’t trust those scary Intertubes b/c who knows what crazy stuff people will put on there!!! Best to just pretend that it never was invented even though all of their colleagues and the companies they work for have been liquidated due to said “imaginary” tool.
At the back of my mind I have a queasy feeling that the reason TPTB so assiduously ignore the Internet – besides the reasons I gave earlier – is that they know its time is coming – if they have their way via the end of net neutrality, etc – when the Net will indeed be relegated to just an online version of the their current stenographers’ output as the only things readily accessible to the common end-user will be pre-approved HuffPo etc content. Then their ignoring of information gleaned from the Internet that contradicts their stories won’t look so awkward and blatant but rather like that’s the way it’s always been. Yes, the whole argument rides the line between elite imbeciles/masterminds but as I said it’s just faint premonition.
Posted by: JSorrentine | Jan 26, 2014 1:30:24 PM | 75
Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Jan 26, 2014 1:44:38 PM | 76
Oh yes, of course, McCain went to meet them, too.
They are about to create a militia
Oleh Tiahnybok also informed the public about some major decisions which were approved by the National Council during the first day of its existence. In particular, the nationalist informed those present about a resolution to adopt extraordinary measures in order to protect the rights and freedoms of citizens of Ukraine and maintain public order in the country. Thus, the National Council of Ukraine decided: to recommend joining the self-defense units all over the country; create nationwide Coordination Center of national self-defense; create coordinating centers of national self-defense in all regions of Ukraine; to establish that the mission of the national self-defense units is the maintenance of public order and protection of own and others’ citizens lives and wellbeing. Moreover, the process of creating such units occurs in line with the Ukrainian legislation, and does not replace the concept of law enforcement agencies’ functioning.Furthermore, Oleh Tiahnybok informed that Ukrainian National Council decided to recommend the local Council Members from the opposition parties to create National Councils and Executive Committees around the country. They should be obligated to ensure safety of people, create municipal police and self-defense units.
Problem will be where they get their weapons from – it won’t be from Poland but Hungary, Romania, or Slovakia are viable. We will soon be back to the old times.
This here is the BBC calling them “nationalists” – calling Bandera “a symbol for Ukrainian independence”.
Let’s see how Europe will plan to integrate them.
Posted by: somebody | Jan 26, 2014 2:36:30 PM | 77
Posted by: somebody | Jan 26, 2014 3:14:53 PM | 78
In addition to similar/identical tactics on the part of “protestors” in these US-sponsored color revolutions as b notes, one should also include the identical recurring roles played by Amnesty International , Human Rights Watch , the NED the other bullshit NGOs/human rights groups as their presence has been duly noted in the each of the recent propaganda campaigns – i.e., Libya, Syria, Ukraine. Not that this is news to any one here but just thought I should once again remind everyone that we currently have “human rights organizations” supporting fascist murderers and thugs once again.
To say that the entire Western Establishment – both “left” and “right” – is a bunch of unmitigated war criminals is an understatement.
Posted by: JSorrentine | Jan 26, 2014 5:57:18 PM | 79
I want, at this time, to remind readers here of the G20 protests in Toronto, Canada.
I want to remind readers how our government in Canada really supports the rights of peaceful protestors.
I want to ask Canadians and Americans why it is our governments always put down peaceful protests with such violence? And why our police forces resort to using provocateurs in amongst the crowds to justify the heavy handed, ultra violent responses
Posted by: brian | Jan 26, 2014 6:21:40 PM | 80
The protestors were never peaceful…. The protestors only made demands.
The protestors do not want compromise. They want their way. Like petulant children.
Does this look to be peaceful protests?
Posted by: brian | Jan 26, 2014 6:23:33 PM | 81
notice their backs are too the police!
Posted by: brian | Jan 26, 2014 6:31:12 PM | 82
The US is strongly pushing the Ukraine EU integration just as it had been behind the 2004 failed “Orange Revolution” to split Ukraine from Russia in a bid to isolate and weaken Russia. Now Ukrainians have found evidence of direct involvement of the Belgrade US-financed training group, CANVAS behind the carefully-orchestrated Kiev protests.
A copy of the pamphlet that was given out to opposition protestors in Kiev has been obtained. It is a word-for-word and picture-for-picture translation of the pamphlet used by US-financed Canvas organizers in the 2011 Cairo Tahrir Square protests that toppled Hosni Mubarak and opened the door to the US-backed Muslim Brotherhood. The photo below is a side-by-side comparison:
– See more at: http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/2014/01/07/us-ngo-uncovered-in-ukraine-protests/#sthash.fyKfBs3N.dpuf
Posted by: brian | Jan 26, 2014 8:20:21 PM | 83
Russia Today is admitting as much:
It’s true that Ukrainian riot police are not beyond criticism. They were involved in deplorable actions, including vicious brutality against unresisting protesters, as footage from the Wednesday crackdown clearly shows.However, many of the people they stand against are far from peaceful and non-violent. They are geared for a guerrilla action, and they are conducting one.
One side justifies the other. The politicians who entered a coalition with fascists will not be able to control what is going on.
On the way, the “Orange revolution” began to rewrite Ukrainian history
Posted by: somebody | Jan 26, 2014 10:02:25 PM | 84
*One of thailand’s protest leader get killed by pro-regime groups, where the f*ck are obama, EU now huh? Hypocrites!
i smell a rat.
Posted by: denk | Jan 26, 2014 10:18:11 PM | 85
Posted by: brian | Jan 26, 2014 10:45:57 PM | 86
Posted by: brian | Jan 26, 2014 10:46:54 PM | 87
n i maintain that the *botched* rescue op in manila which killed dozens of hk tourists, invoking huge outrage in hk n the mainland, was another made in fukus ff to exacerbate the already tensed relation bet china n ph.
Posted by: denk | Jan 26, 2014 10:56:53 PM | 88
the pattern sure looks unmistakable
Posted by: denk | Jan 26, 2014 11:00:30 PM | 89
Posted by: JSorrentine | Jan 26, 2014 1:30:24 PM | 74
Hence the epithet “reptiles” used by critics of media laziness and dishonesty here in Oz.
Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jan 26, 2014 11:41:03 PM | 90
Of course your guess could be as good as, or better than, mine.
I used the term ambush because the tactic of offering concessions which one suspects will be promptly rejected does 2 things:
1. It obliges the rejectors to publicly defend and articulate their stance.
2. It invites the rejectors to privately reinforce their stance and discuss, among themselves, the next step toward consolidation.
If their communications are being intercepted by Ukraine-Putin’s party poopers then a list of perps is being compiled as we speak. And, with Yankee plots, one should never rule out the ‘loose lips’ factor unleashed by the Schadenfreude gene.
My guess is that the scum have brought their overthrow plot forward, prematurely, Wishin’ And Hopin’ to teach Vlad a lesson. Prematurely (an exercise in indecent haste, so to speak).
Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jan 27, 2014 12:08:35 AM | 91